Help really required - cross contamination issue - Hay

[saggy]

Hey guys,

I appear to be having major cross contamination issues and am reacting to something I am am giving the degus in terms of gluten. I have itchy blisters appearing everywhere which is the first sign that I have been glutened and am starting to feel quite sick and tired I thought maybe last week that it was a trace something in food I ate at a restaurant  or something else accidental but the reaction has not gone down and the I'm getting new blisters every day so must be something I am continually being exposed to and can't really escape this fact now. I took great pain in making sure all there forage, pellets and what not were all gluten free so the only other possibility is the hay. This would make sense as it is the hay that I can smell strongly and this that seems to be making my nose sting and it is most definaely this that seems to be getting everywhere in my kitchen and being tracked elsewhere. And I've never had hay fever or anything like that and hay fever would not make my blisters come up - only gluten does this to me. I never even thought about the hay!! I just re- read the JR mountain meadow hay I bought and it actually says mountain hay and straw in description so definately has gluten in I would presume based on that and most hay does not enough details to really know what's in them. I did a quick bit of google research and hay can definately be a problem for people like me and a couple of people suggested that timothy hay has less chance of having gluten in than other types but still no guarantee but I can give this a go. Does anyone know of a qulity but reasonably priced timothy hay that is likely to just be timothy hay - I'm assuming that the P@H version has a perecntage of straw etc in it to keep the costs down as most their other food does. Does anyone else have any experience with suitable hay for coeliacs?

I might have to not get hay at all if this fails as I am going to end up very sick very soon at this rate! I read something about pelletised hay - could this be an alternative that wont get everywhere so easily. Is this basically like the meister lampe I've been giving them although they don't seem interested in this. I can obviously give them oat grass if I find some that doesn't also contain wheat or barley (although not yet found any) and alfalfa should be fine although I believe this should only be once a week or so. Are there any other options to get around this. And anything similar in form and cheap enough to use as bedding. I'm really hoping there is as really cannot allow this to continue as was already on the verge of other issues such as diabeties and addisons disease before I went gluten free and cannot allow that to happen plus whatever else I might then get on top afterwards nevermind how ill and tired I get making normal everyday activities almost impossible

Any advice anecdoctal or not would be appreciated

[ilikedegus]

Oxbow Timothy hay is probably OK? We used to buy it from the vet, not the cheapest.

Have you considered that it MAY be an allergy to something else?
I am certain you understand your own body and I don't wish to patronise you.
Is it worth asking for a skin test for some of the substances the goos are eating?

I have only ever bought a sampler pack from these guys but they should be able to help you with a "pure" hay?

www.thehayexperts.co.uk/

[saggy]

Hiya - thank you but no realy don't think it can be anything else as I have something called Dermatitis Herpetiformis which is very gluten specific and specific in symptoms and types of blisters and this is what I am getting - exactly the same type of rash and blisters in exactly the same places so cannot be anything else to be honest and it has to be from ingesting gluten too. I am very sensitive to gluten and cannot even handle trace amounts and after having read up on hay properly, this is making complete sense now. I actually did just find the hay experts and called them and they literally knew everything - so so so helpful. They told me everything about every different hay and manufacturer, what they rotate their crops with and possible cross contamination at their various storage/processing/packaging places. Basically for anyone who needs to know - Oxbrow timothy and Alfalfa King are both suitable. Neither produce gluten products on these fields and is packaged their too. Oxbrow do rotate with oats but considering they are fine as long as not cross contaminated, this should be absolutely fine. There are a few others manufacturers/farms that do not grow gluten crops but they are stored and then packaged at places where cross contamination is possible so will probably just stick with the two mentioned. Glad that is sorted now and that there are options out there. Can't believe how much this lady knew - they really are the hay experts lol. Never expected that

[ilikedegus]

Thank you for the explanation of the specific dermatitis - I have learnt something.
My goodness it must be so hard for you to avoid wheat hidden in things!

Also, it's good to know that The Hay Experts are experts! I'm glad you found them so helpful and knowledgeable, I'm sure others will take note of this.

[moletteuk]

What a bummer to react so easily. You should have said you have DH, do you think you get a reaction on contact or is it ingestion, I though it was ingestion, but I don't know so much about DH. You've got me worried for my coeliac disease, haven't had a blood test for a couple of years

Sounds like you are more or less sorted, the hay cakes at the end of this thread are low dust, and my goos really like them (when they also aren't much interested in MeisterLampe) deguworld.proboards.com/thread/15533 I think you may be reacting to the rye, which seems to be a component in quite a lot of hays, it's a common grass. Don't forget gluten is in barley, rye and oats (maybe) as well as wheat. I think the pure timothy hay probably sounds like your best option.

Hope it settles down for you quickly.

[saggy]

I know, I didn't think it could be so possible but I must be breathing in dust when going into the hay bale etc and the strands are wafting all over my kitchen bexause it is light and getting kicked about - I even found a little on my countertops lol!! DH is deinfately ingestion although many with it believe it to be contact too. I was having problems with certain products with wheat in such as hair mousse, washing up liquid, soap etc which seemed to make them worse but I no longer have a problem with these or touching gluten since the blisters cleared up completely. The problem is that DH can take a good couple of years to clear up after going GF and I suppose that with big open sore blisters that get infected and bloody, things may possibly get into your blood stream more easily which is pretty much the same as if digesting it (not a medical expert, just my opinion lol). But I definately can touch even the purest of gluten when I have no rash at all as long as I wash my hands thouroughly before shoving them into my gob lol! I am fine with oats that are not cross-contaminated. I'll take a look at the cakes but I think I should be good with pure timothy hay and the fact that this woman knew so much about it without me having to explain at all makes me feel hopeful that is the case.

Just realised the price of this stuf though - eeeeeeeek! I really don't think they'll be getting it for bedding somehow lol! That german site also sells timothy hay at a better price but might be a little more difficult finding out details about it so might give that a go once I am back to normal and try eating one bit directly before spreading it everywhere lol!

I had to apologise to my mother as well as I accused her of glutening me last week lol

I think maybe you should go and have your test moletteuk tut tut I suppose it depends on how symptomatic you are, I know straight away because of the almost instant blisters which get worse the more I consume which makes it very easy to know if being glutened and pinpointing the cause exactly but it must be very difficult for those who are getting damaged without many symptoms to let them know. Maybe it was this hay specifically as does state there is straw in it too so more chance of gluten being in there. I hadn't noticed this as not obvious but I dont really want to risk trying anything else that I can't get exact details on now as it clearly didn't take much to set me off and as you mention, rye in most. It took over a year for the blisters to clear up initially but that was after years of major gluten comsumption. It now only takes a month or so for skin to go back to normal depending on how much I had but the itching which is the worst bit goes away after a day or two. I don't drive but my mum is going to get me some of that alfalfa king from pets at home and bring it round tomorrow and then get it out of the cage for me and take it all away lol!

It's not that hard to be honest ilikedegus, I just avoid processed foods which I did before I found out so it was only finding an alternative to the bread I was eating every day. Most food is naturally gluten free. The only problem is when eating out, or being invited to someone elses house for meals or now clearly hay lol.

Thanks again everyone

[saggy]

Yes, just thought about it more - trace amounts don't bother me in terms of the most obvious symptom of coeliac - as in what goes in, must come out - trying to be polite lol! I have to eat a good blob of gluten for that so please do get your test done moletteuk just in case. My blisters appear at very small amounts so is easy for me to know but even small amounts on an everyday basis are going to add up. Did you have your degus when you last had your test - did you show an immune reaction then?

[Karma]

I am glad oxbow is good - that is what my guys get! I Did react badly to another brand but assumed it was mold containment because I also am allergic to outdoor mold and it was mainly respiratory symptoms - maybe I was wrong.

I am as sensitive as you but get asthma , arthritis, and gut symptoms (however not technically to gluten because I have been tested again and again for celiac - including bisopy and it is negative every time). My goos are 100% gluten free and my new goo is 90% and only because I can't tell for sure if he is eating the crispy pellets and don't want him to lose weight .... Love you aslan

Oat is technically gluten free by itself by it is so often planted and processed with wheat that FDA does not allow it to be labelled gluten free. But there a lot of "gluten free" foods that are not fully gluten free, they only have to under 20 parts per million and I seem to react down to about 10 parts so certain brands I can not use. Sauces, flavours and spices can have them hidden as well .... And I'm sicker then a dog for weeks when exposed, it sucks. Oh and there is also the double whammy of a dairy allergy as well - hardest part for that is medication - I CANNOT tolerate ANY Lactose and most stupid pharmacists won't look or don't believe me. Allergies are sooooo much fun

Great tidbit on the hay though - never would of thought about contaimination there ..... I'm glad you found someone that could help!

[moletteuk]

My last test about 2 years ago was clear (I had the goos then), so I'm not too worried, although I might have a bit of a sort out and tidy up and work out how much gluten is lying around the pet area. I was asymptomatic at diagnosis about 10yrs ago, so it's not so easy for me to know if I am ingesting anything, but I have tried oats a couple of times this year and I think I might have reacted to them, had painful indigestion for a few days anyway. (Karma, the oats are still pretty contentious, even GF ones, there are different rules in different countries, in UK they reckon about 10% of coealiacs react to GF oats). It's such a minefield.

I just looked up the rye grass in meadows, apparently it's a different species to the plant that produces gluten containing rye grain, so it shouldn't be that that is causing a problem. This might mean that Readigrass or Justgrass might be also be options, might be of interest to other people trying to reduce pollen and moulds etc, they do contain small pieces but are low dust and the industrial drying must reduce the mould content. For trace wheat levels it depends if they rotate the crops, not sure how helpful the companies are.

Karma, I really feel for you being so sensitive without the coeliac rubber stamp and with the lactose complication. Give Aslan a tickle from me x

[Karma]

I have one brand and one brand only of oats I can eat - called only oats. And they test it down to zero (at least to the testing levels available at the moment) level of gluten. Not the 10 or 20 parts per million they could if they wanted but zero.

I am also weird that I can handle spelt and kamut which are not guten free (although I haven't tried in a few years just to not worry about wheat contamination ... I get small reactions too often from who knows where to test fate myself). It seems to be celiac symptoms to a different protein for me.

Anything, and I mean anything else with oats in it I stay far away form - cookies, deserts, granola bars (even "gluten free" ones) .... Anything. I also realized why I reacted to so many creams and shampoos, because I was reacting to the oatmeal in them!! Go figure!! Lol

Tickle, tickle soon to start the daunting task of intros soon, gulp. I need to spend this weekend reading about what to do and you can bet you guys will have some questions from me

[saggy]

Yes, Karma, my joints and muscles hurt badly on gluten too but I know it is frustrating without that rubber stamp as moletteuk put it as it took quite a while to get it myself - been taken to doctors all my life about stomach cramps and problems since I was five and only just got it! but I really wouldn't worry about that as the latest valid reasearch has shown that current standard coeliac testing is woefully inadequate. It was found that over a third of blood tests are false negative, many people have bowel damage further down than what a biopsy can reach and damage can be patchy if you have already given up gluten for some time beforehand so easily missed after just six weeks of eating it again and you would really need to it for three months (who's willing to feel that bad for that long lol?) plus they only test for one or two components of gluten, but a study undertaken in europe on people with autoimmune thyroid disease who tested negative for coeliac, found that that up to 85% were in fact coeliac when full spectrum and proper testing was done. SO trust yourself, not the doctors!

Yeah I saw that readigrass but wasn't sure how much they could eat of that although it is cheaper lol!

I think the bigger problem is adding straw like I found out the JR Farm one did - I don't believe for one second that the cheaper timothy hays from pets at home and so on dont have cheap straw and stuff to bulk it out as if they could legally advertise it as pure 100% timothy hay like the more expensive ones do, I'm pretty sure they would! I am only going to get oat grass if I find one that is from a place that appears to not produce gluten products such as oxbrow. I suppose regardless of the field it is growing in - it mostly all goes back to the same place for processing and I expect there's gluten dust everywhere

I also feel very sorry for you with the added lactose issue - that would bother me far more than the gluten, don't know what I would do with myself to be honest! Some people do report being able to go back on lactose/dairy once they've been off gluten successfully for quite a while so maybe some hope!

Yes, I find a lot of problems with the "gluten free" alternatives and oats in a lot of places which is why I just don't normally bother and go for food without gluten in the first place and in it's most natural form but I have found that the breads/pastas/oats etc in sainburies do not cause me any problems so maybe worth trying theirs - are you remembering to get gluten free toothpaste - took me a while to figure out that one lol!

I am struggling to find something to replace the hay in terms of bedding, I will not use the expensive ones for that lol! Problem is they like to burrow in it and hide things and so on but nothing really like it - only thing I can come up with is shredding paper myself as it sort of has some structure to it but not really sure what paper I can shred without causing them a problem lol!

[moletteuk]

Amazing from this random sample of 3 how different we are, no wonder the one size fits all approach doesn't work very well.

When you say bedding, do you mean they are taking hay into the nest? Or do you have hay as part of the general substrate? There are tons of good choices for substrate in the UK deguworld.proboards.com/thread/8754/cage-bedding-reviews Also, quite a lot of options for nest material, and if you provide enough of them and keep the hay a distance away this should avoid them nesting with the hay. Paper and cardboard of various types are ideal for nesting, most will collect and shred it themselves, you can also get things like Safebed, which are quite good. My girls only resort to nesting with hay when there isn't enough paper. I think any paper is fine except inkjet/ laserjet printed paper, like home or work printer is no good and I wouldn't use magazine paper. Mine went crazy for cardboard until I had to stop giving it due to Flossie's breathing issues.

You can tell there is no straw in Readigrass, it is all bright green. It doesn't exactly replace hay, but it can reduce the requirement and most love it.


(Must have been an emotional day getting Aslan, hope it all works out, fingers firmly crossed for everyone)

[saggy]

Apologies for delay in getting back - had projectile vomiting daughter for a couple of days! I am happy to say the alfalfa king worked, after I cleared up and got rid of all the old hay and washed every surface over for dust, my nose stopped tingling straight away, the itching went the next day and I stopped getting more blisters the day after as expected so all gluten free again - now I just got to find a cheaper source lol

I got to say though - there doesn't appear to be any dust particles what so ever in the king alfalfa one, is amazingly clean

Yes I had carefresh on bottom but then they had hay on top as this is what they were used too before with my aunty as everything else fell out of cage and thought it would help them acclimatise in first week and they took it into the nest and formed a kind of tunnel and then padded it out with loads of tissue - I know they had enough paper/tissue as they stopped wanting to take any down, they also had these kind of mini/half burrows made with hay around the nest area where they hid their sticks and some food etc so they seemed to like it but can't think if anything else that would have the same structural qualities as hay to allow them do this especially their little mini burrows - not sure what else to call them lol?? They seem to be missing it as they keep clearing all the carefresh away from the nest and around it and leaving the majority of the base with just the metal no matter how much I add - so clearly not impressed with the carefresh on it's own as much prefer cold metal??? Yes, I have the hay in just the hay bale up top now and they seem to really like eating this wonderfully expensive stuff but it is clear that it is too much effort for them to take it to their nest now as they can only get one bit at a time rather than a clump like before.

Apologies karma but not aware of situation with Aslan but don't want you to think being rude by seemingly ignoring it and not commenting

[moletteuk]

Very good to hear you stopped reacting, what a relief!

I can't really think of a replacement for the digging hay, I guess they will get over, all you can do is experiment with alternatives. Maybe they could arrange some little branches with leaves and twigs in amongst some Safebed or shredded cardboard or whatever and create something that would do. Oh, I wonder if you can get coconut fibres or something like that? Shredded sisal rope??

I see PAH have the Alfalfa King timothy hay with 20% off if you buy 3 online, but don't know if you can collect at store to avoid delivery charge.

Sorry about the Aslan conversation cropping up on your thread, another mod has a difficult family situation going on and Karma has taken on her beloved degu, Aslan, for her. (I only knew this had definitely taken place when Karma mentioned it in passing on here).

[saggy]

I just saw some coconut fibres quite cheap on amazon, it's £2 for 330grams which actually seems quite cheap in comparison to other nesting material but it is an add on item so will have to buy something else but I'm always buying stuff from there so won't be hard - that might work. there is also some bird nesting material made with coconut fibres, jute, cotton and sissal but is much more expensive so I'll try the coco stuff first. Although actually, does that work out cheaper than just using the hay lol!

Yes, I had seen the P&H stuff as that's where I grabbed it from but thought it was only 10% off if you brought three but 20% is much better and I know you can order to store for free as they lady told me when I was in there as she said better to order online and get the discount and pick up. So I'll probably do that. I might also try the hannesman one, they say for those with hay sensitivities and hay allergies so hoping it would be pretty good stuff as with the extra added on for postage, it works out about £12 something for 3.75kg. You can get larger amounts but I don't have so much space to store it! I'll let you know what it's like along with the other stuff when I get it.

No problems at all - I'm not thread protective, just worried I might have missed something and seemed ignorant lol!!

[Karma]

I didn't mention aslan to mention him, it was more about the fact he needed to switch food for me to get rid of the wheat based food which he has good boy. I never excepted you to know anything saggy - only a few people know anything about it.

[saggy]

Oh good, glad to here he's gievn up the wheat lol. yeah mine were very reluctant at first and I tried decreasing the amount of P&H nuggest but were still ignoring the new stuff so I just took the same stance as my daughter and gave them nothing else for a day or two figuring they will not starve themselves and they now gobble it down lol!