Help with Cage for a Newbie!

[saggy]

Hi there, I am about to get some degus and need a little advice on the cage and adaptations. Just to add before people start moaning at me, that I am aware of recommendations for cage sizes and that I don't meet this criteria and I have agonised over this but there really is not much choice. My relative who had two boys, got two more males (from P@H!) after one of them died and successfully introduced them. However, one of the males has recently given birth and it turns out they sold two females instead of two males so another litter quite likely on the way!!!!!! She has tried to rehome them but without success and only interest was from a a few people who clearly couldn't even be bothered to find anything out about them beforehand and most likely take the P@H advice. So I agreed to take two or three and she is getting a massive cage to house the others. I really can't find any other place where they can go apart from my kitchen for which I have already removed a piece of needed furniture. I have a larger space on a large landing but it is in direct sunlight in front of a large window and I can't have them in the frontroom with my parrot and he is particularly grumpy if he doesn't get his 10-12 hours straight sleep, suffers night frights with sudden noises and is susceptable to rodent urine as most birds are so I just can't. I am planning to get an only slightly wider and taller cage at some point (can only go to 70w)  which I've seen (but out of stock in uk for 6 months) but budget would only allow this for the moment (and yes I scoured gumtree and ebay for size appropriate second hand).

The internal cage size is 61.5x51x124 and I intend on making some shelves and add as much floor space as possible. I wanted two complete levels but the designs of the two doors would not allow me access to middle section to clean so I plan on one full complete level in the middle with one 60 x 30/25 shelve above this and one the same size between the floor and middle shelf but thought I had better check with you guys before making them in case this is not appropriate as have searched but not had much luck in specific info. Is this too squished - do they require a certain height between levels etc or does this sound good? There will also be a few other mini stepping ledges etc etc. I am also trying to think of everything I can to not take up space inside such as getting hay rack that sits on outside and making a solid metal wheel which sits snug against the side - any other suggestions?

I am also trying to mess proof as much as possible as in my kitchen and don't want to attract mice so am putting on splash guards - would it be better to be wood on the inside or acrylic on the outside - can you put acrylic on the inside? The cage bars are a little weak so am already trying to spread the loads as much as possible with extra fittings and placing them where there's a bar going down also, larger washers and on every side. Is there any way to protect the shelves from pee - I will have more messier bedding/nesting stuff in the deep base but not so happy about stuff that flys out of the cage higher up - anything to line it with or other substrate that tends to stay in place? I'm not so fussed about the smaller shelves as easier to replace but would like the middle shelf to remain nice for as long as possible.

Also, can you fill the shelves/space up a little too much - do they need it clear for running or is it better to have a lot more interesting areas and things to play with or is a good balance between the two best? I intend on utilising every bit of space as much as possible but don't want to overdo it to their detriment.

I'm very sorry for the essay and amount of questions but figured best to be clear to get the answers I need.

I will of course look to find a way to increase their space but is probably unlikely as single mum in flat and even when I move in a couple of years, I am unlikely to get the space I have in this one.

Many thanks in advance for any advice given, I would be really grateful.

Sarah )

[saggy]

That was supposed to be a smiley face lol

[moletteuk]

Pets at Home strike again! I can see this is quite a tricky situation, and you've obviously done the reading about cage size and put thought into what you can provide, so I'll skip the lecture, but I can't promise you won't end up with rioting degus if they feel cooped up. Do you think you will be able to provide free range time out of the cage?

Can you provide a pic of the cage or a link so we can picture it better?

Would it be possible to alter the doors so that you could have access to put more full shelves in? I think this would really help. Standard shelf spacing is usually around 35cm, but you can have some shelves lower than this, depending on the depth (front to back), the space will be darker and harder to access, but most degus will appreciate having one shelf like this, it makes a safe feeling place for a nest. 30cm shouldn't be a problem, you just need a bigger space somewhere for the wheel. I think it would help if you can provide good access between the levels so they can continue a run sort of in a spiral from shelf to shelf, to try to mitigate the narrowness.

I'm not sure a hay rack outside the cage will work, but then mine won't use a hay rack, I have seen other people use them though, maybe you could just mount something above a shelf?

You can't put acrylic on the inside as they will chew it, I would have thought they will try to chew it on the outside too, but I'm not sure, I haven't used it. I don't see why you couldn't use wooden edging and mount that tight up on the outside so you don't lose the couple of centimetres.

See cage materials thread for more info on shelf choice deguworld.proboards.com/thread/17316/cage-materials Basically if you want permanent wipeable shelves, then use melamine faced furniture board and edge it carefully. I think main shelf/ shelves of this and then smaller shelves with replaceable pine would work well, as you suggest, they do need some things they can chew freely.

Mine like places to hang out and hide, they enjoy wood, brances, twigs, sticks of all kinds and they enjoy a variety of food enrichment, they also love all nesting activities, collecting bedding, shredding cardboard and so on. They don't play much for the sake of it.

[saggy]

Yes I should be able to provide free range outside as with my bird most days but am struggling to find some sort of play pen with suitable bar spacing as I live in quite an old house and lots of holes but nothing really on the market that I can see - I will probably have to make one - can I put in bath if I haven't had a chance to do it by the time I get one? It is possible I can do it in my daughters bedroom as that is one with least escape holes! I would never let it go on if they really were fighting badly or seemed unhappy, I would prefer to do away with my kitchen table as would feel too guilty lol! I have always given my animals almost double what is recommended/required (had four goldfish in a four foot tank and my parrotlet in a massive cage) so this is actually quite hard for me to live with.

The cage is this one although I got it £20 cheaper - www.littlepetwarehouse.co.uk/metal-chew-proof-tall-chinchilla-cage-grey-p-1743.html

I considered putting them half way between the doors but just wouldn't leave enough space to get arm in above and below and don't think can really move the doors. Yes I had considered the wheel and one level will have to be slightly lower and one slightly higher for it to work exactly but only a few centimetres. So basically there would be one complete level and then two large shelves one above and one below both along the back so ease of access - almost half levels and I will add smaller stepping ones here and there as well but yes, to design into a type of spiral is a great idea to help continuous running so thanks - will use that. The hay rack I had been looking at was this which has been designed for outside - it's worth a try I suppose but will keep my eye out.

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LARGE-HAY-RACK-FOR-CHINCHILLA-GUINEA-PIG-RABBIT-CAGE-/300286505266?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item45ea787132

The only reason I meantioned acrylic/perspex was because I have seen a couple of cages using it inside and degutopia had said acrylic bird toys were suitable for degus so was a little confused. I was leaning towards wood anyway. I'd also seen that a lot of people had used plastikote but again, wasn't entirely convinced of suitability??

I haven't got the degus yet but have already got those large wooden bendy stick bridges/tunnels, a large hollow cork log, a terracotta pot, a rope and wood ladder and will buy a few more things before they come.

Thanks so much for your advice

[moletteuk]

Playpen thread, fairly easy to make if you get B&Q to cut the sheets for you, & piano hinges from toolstation. deguworld.proboards.com/thread/7310

Bath might not be big enough for them to really enjoy, but whole or half a bathroom or bedroom might be degu proofable with a bit of imagination, don't undererstimate the holes and trouble they can get into though!

Those cages were actually pretty popular for degus a while ago, I think moderator Kins had one, so she might be able to give you some tips, also if you look in the earlier pages of 'show us your cage' thread you might see some with some fitting out ideas. I think some people laid them sideways in the end.

That hay rack mounted on the outside will just drop hay on your floor. If you want to mount something on the outside, it might as well be something solid, I guess you could just line it with cardboard though. Have you seen the metal semi circle hanging baskets you can get, they might be handy for you and you sometimes see them in the pound shop.

If something is in a place where it can be chewed then I wouldn't use plastic if you can avoid it. Occasionally people will use hard plastic wheels or running saucers if they can't find anything else, but they aren't really long term solutions and can break into shards if chewed. The perspex splash guards have the advantage of being see through, but you need to mount them carefully so they can't chew them through the mesh, I know some people have done this, you might find threads on this about 4 yrs ago. You can buy child safe Plastikote that I would be happy enough to use as long as they don't end up eating a lot of it. I've got some to spray a metal wheel with actually, I just haven't done it yet. Degutopia is getting a bit out of date on some topics, particularly housing and food, the medical advice seems to be kept up to date though. Do have a browse of our diet section, the main message is that they need lots of varied forage.

The accessories you mentioned sound like good choices, cardboard boxes can tide you over while you work out which things they like.

Check the degu sexes carefully before you bring the little fellas home.

[saggy]

Ha, after the fiasco with P@H, me and my aunty have both decided to read as much as possible about how to sex degus ourselves and will use them literally as a second opinion. As it stands it appears that one is a boy and the other five are girls so my aunty is considering neutering the dad (P@H have already agreed to him only) and the one boy just to save any further problems. But we will check them thouroughly again nearer the time. P@H also told my aunty that the cage they were in was fine and not to move them - the babies obviously started escaping through the massive holes in the mesh and one even went down a hole under the floorboards so I rushed round, grabbed some mesh from B&Q and covered the cage - no more escapes. And don't worry, he came back out from under the floor so now all six still safe and sound Thanks for the link to the playpen - very useful. I didn't think to look in the show us your cage section as I just imagined no one would put unsuitable cages in the thread lol :/ Okay, out with the plastics, I will just use wood but I think I will use plastikote on the main full level only and leave the rest for safe chewing. I can keep an eye on that one. I will rethink the hay bale - maybe I can just line that with plastic lol!

I literally just posted a thread on the diet page asking whether my plans for feeding were suitable earlier as wanted to make sure I get that right so any feedback would be very useful. THanks again for your wonderful help x

[jamiee]

With the cage, make sure to cover the shelves in cardboard or wood, as they are wire, which is bad for their feet. I'd recommend to add in extra shelves made from wood, to the empty spaces in the cage, to reduce fall height, and give them a lot more space. When you do have the degus, I recommend that you get a wheel for each of them, and plenty of tunnels or houses, and other toys like chewing toys and hammocks.

[moletteuk]

It depends how many groups you want between you and your aunty, you could try keeping father and son together and avoid any neutering. The son will be too young for neutering for a few months anyway.

The show us your cage thread goes back far enough in time some of it predates the improvement in our size recommendations, it's quite an interesting evolution if you look through the whole thread.

I have no idea how well Plastikote will work as waterproofing on a shelf, I don't know anyone who has done that. I think the melamine furniture board is a safer option for being waterproof. Or vinyl tiles or even that stick on plastic sheeting are options, if edged carefully.

[saggy]

All shelving I am making will be wood (sorry if didn't make that clear) and will be putting in a full level and two halfish levels and few additonal tiny ones as mentioned and have already bought lots of wooden stuff to chew, tunnels and so on. My bird does not like cage shelf type floors either and neither of them would be walking on thin bars of metal in the wild so wouldn't feel right making them walk on it in a cage so goes without saying

Well we are hoping not to have to deal with any more but if I take three she will be left with six and has bought a massive cage suitable for six and is hoping to keep them together as the original three got on so well and never really fought - the cage can be easily split in half if they don't get on for some reason or we will have to go back to the drawing board!!

I will see if I can find anything about plastikote elsewhere and research it a bit more.

Many thanks

[moletteuk]

Regarding the other group, mixed sex groups often work quite well, but it's normal to only have one male with multiple females, otherwise the males fight over the females. The males being father and son may make the harmony last a little longer, but I would not expect father, son and multiple females to work as a grouping. In a situation like this it is more usual to put father and son together and then the females together in a separate group. Food for thought for your auntie!

[saggy]

Oh okay, maybe being neutered might help lol!!! Well maybe he is a little less territorial than most as he had no probs accepting the two new females some time back and they definately rule the roost so he's quite submissive or was he just extra happy to get two ladies and doing what he can to keep them happy lol? Okay, well if it doesn't work she has the option of splitting her new cage in half - would it work with one male and two females in each or would it be best for me to take the little boy plus two females in the first place providing he's been done? The Dad has been done today eeek! splitting males from females won't exactly work as I don't think one half of her cage is suitable for four (fine three in each) and she's rather attached to the father being the one she's had the longest so I can't take the two males and I would prefer to take three anyway in case something happens to one and also the father will obviously die before the son as the father is about three years old now. THanks for the heads up

[moletteuk]

A group of one male and two females is a natural grouping and should work really well, it's the best chance of a stable group (the sticking point just being the neutering operation), the male isn't necessarily the boss in the group.

I hope the op went well for the dad. See how his recovery goes before you make your final decision on neutering the son. Don't foget he will be too young for neutering for a few months, so that could present a problem in the meantime.

[saggy]

Thanks, yes a lot to consider but I just can't see seperating the two boys being something we can do easily/viably between us even though I would have prefered not to neuter. I'm seeing that it's probably best if I take male pup and two females then if she is hoping to keep them together as a six. I'm not allowed to see them at the mo as she doesn't want anyone going into the room and stressing out the dad until he's recovered lol. In terms of how long we've got safely before boy can produce, P@H told my aunty that it's six months but I told her that I really don't believe that for one minute. Do you know how long we've got? Depending on that, we might be able to use her original cage to house him temporarily in the time between him being able to produce and neutering appropriate time.

I think the boy pup is the houdini one who was running round the cage straight after being born and kept being put back with the others by the adults on the first day and the one who kept escaping the cage and was found two rooms away and the one who explored beneath the floor boards - so he could be a handful trust my luck lmao!!

We are really just hoping the other female is not pregnant as really don't know what to do with more eek :/

Thanks, Sarah

[saddlers]

We have two groups of one male with two females, and it seems to work a treat....as usual the boys think they are the boss, but it is definitely the females in both groups that rule the roost!!

[moletteuk]

We believe boys can be fertile at around 6 to 8 weeks old! So you might need to keep him separate for a while. I would recommend speaking with an experienced vet and maybe some more research on the soonest you can neuter a boy. Some sources say 1 yr, I think they say around 6 months minimum in Germany where husbandry is a bit more advanced than here. It's a bit of a conundrum with them being fertile so young but not really adult until about a year old, castrating too young can affect their development.

[saddlers]

I seem to remember our vets advising 12 months old before neutering, but I may be mistaken

[saggy]

ummmm, I see the problem with that!!! Okay well I suppose the only option would be for my aunty to split the cage in two and keep dad and boy together and four girls in the other half until he has been done and then hope they all get on together and for me to take 3 girls. I suppose if there are too many problems within the groups, we will have to think how appropriate it is to switch the groups around a little after a year. Degus are so much more complicated that I originally thought lol!!!!!!!!!! I know it probably isn't likely - but do they remember who their family are after certain time??

You never know, there might be some more soon with extra boys to go somewhere with the single boy lmao.

Thanks again, we probably never would have known all this in time to plan appropriately and very much doubt P@H would have known all this info or informed us

[saggy]

Or the only other thing I can think of is to keep the dad and boy in original cage (she hasn't got the space but maybe will agree if short term until he is a year) five girls in her new one, two girls to me and then I take the boy and introduce him to my 2 girls when he's been done and the dad gets reintroduced to the five girls. Maybe this is preferential than hoping the two boys can get along together with all the girls later and then having to swap them about between us again. I don't really think we can keep the four girls in one half permenantly - just wouldn't be fair in terms of space! A lot to ponder I suppose!!

[moletteuk]

Yes, I think that sounds better than hoping both boys will live with the girls.

People do seem to report that degus can have very long memories for family members.

[saddlers]

I agree that sounds like a promising plan.