What wood would you use?

[Spree]

Tongue twister title!

Anyway, hello! I'm Katie, also known as Spree, and I'm looking towards getting some Goos in the near future!

I currently have a 45" x 22" x 15" (L x W x D) Wooden Vivarium I am looking to convert into a Degu home. I'm planning to cut out and cover some nice big vents to airflow.

I'm here because I'm looking at wood materials for levels, and I'm getting a bit confused, even with the good guides on here. I'm looking to buy from B&Q as I can get it all cut to size on their big machine, but I'm not sure which kind to get. I'm leaning towards MDF, but that's probably just the Reptile keeper in me, reptiles don't chew lol!

So, if you were buying from this website here: www.diy.com/nav/build/timber/sheet-materials
which wood would you use?

If it helps, I'm half planning to line the layers with coco fibre: www.reptiles.swelluk.com/reptile-supplies/reptile-tank-decoration-411/backgrounds-509/lucky-reptile-coco-background-29280.html , but I'm not 100% sure yet.

Also, what would you use for edging? I understand it's a good idea to have a little lip on layers, but what's to stop them chewing the lip? Could I use aluminium edging to prevent chewing where it's unwanted, or could they potentially hurt their teeth on it?


Hopefully in the near future I'll be able to share pictures of some happy Goos in their happy home, but I want to make sure it's all good!   

[ilikedegus]

Hi Spree and welcome to the forum.

"kiln dried pine" is what's usually recommended, and B&Q have plenty of this, just labelled as "pine".

Floorboarding, skirting board...in my local B&Q there's plenty in the "Builder's Yard" outside as well.

Just obviously be careful that it's just pine, not treated with anti-fungals etc (usually has a blue/green tinge).

If you've got the cash, there are sellers on eBay etc who will sell you ready-made pine shelving with screws and washers.

Personally I don't like MDF - I have read that inhaling the dust is very very bad for all of us - but many on the forum will recommend it.

Regarding edging, again personally I would rather buy cheap pine and let the beggars exercise their teeth on it and replace when necessary. You can buy strip aluminium and steel in B&Q though.

One of my late goos chewed through plenty of aluminium over the years, I know it's toxic...

[Spree]

Hiya Degus,thanks for the reply!

That's handy to know, I would have wandered forever looking for Kiln Dried specifically otherwise lol! I'll certainly ask if I'm unsure as to whether it's treated or not.

Oh dear, I would never have figured they'd go through metal! I'm thinking if I go for MDF, I'd edge it, but if I go for pine I'll leave it unedged in that case. I'm not too sure which yet, I'll have a look down there soon and decide depending on what's available

[moletteuk]

Hi Spree, and welcome to the forum

To be perfectly honest, the viv isn't going to be big enough to provide a happy home. The good news is that the dimensions of it are ideal if you could stack another one on top? You are looking for a minimum of 1850 square inches of floor space, so 45" x 22" = 990 so two full viv floor areas would be fine.
I don't think the current viv is tall enough to get a full area level in to provide the extra floor area that way. You certainly wouldn't fit a wheel in. The average shelf spacing required is around 14", and the viv is only 15" high. Do you think you could get hold of another similar viv?

Regarding the original question, for smaller shelves I would normally use pine or softwood of some kind and replace when it gets stinky or too chewed, but for main structural shelves I personally would choose something waterproof or at least water/urine resistant like melamine faced furniture board or plywood covered with vinyl tiles and then carefully edge the shelf.

[ilikedegus]

Sept 11, 2014 16:47:54 GMT moletteuk said:

for main structural shelves I personally would choose something waterproof or at least water/urine resistant like melamine faced furniture board or plywood covered with vinyl tiles and then carefully edge the shelf.

Molette makes a good point - Melamine-Face Chipboard is not something I've ever used because of the way my cages are made. Edging the shelves with steel strip (see B&Q again) would be essential or your furry devils will eat them. Also you wouldn't want to leave pee-soaked substrate on them as eventually the melamine will lift from the wood (you can easily identify habitual peeing areas and prevent problems).

Regarding Aluminium, well some goos do eat it and some don't - and of course enough of it will make them ill. Manny (RIP) chewed anything and everything, even the thick pieces of Aluminum tea-tray we'd used to make a doorway. Some Aluminium's harder - if you find any with an "anodised" finish it will be harder than most (though the tea-tray was anodised and it didn't stop Manny.

Cardboard is a great floor-covering IMHO - plain brown boxes from supermarkets, as long as it's clean. Soaks up pee beautifully and then you can delight your local bin men by putting it in the recycling bin

[Spree]

Hiya Molette! I got my dimensions wrong (took website dimensions on a similar but not the same model, measured mine just now), it's 48" long, 22" high and 15" back, and I'm planning to have a full shelf a little up from halfway, so plenty of floor space. I understand concerns about height, they'll be about 10" once the middle shelf is in, but I will judge it when I go to measure up again before I go buying anything, as if it looks too squashed then I certainly won't be doing it.

From my calcs, with the full shelf, it'll reach 2112 floorspace, so enough for a pair?

Heck, I'm not making much sense, I'll just post this rough idea:


Note that's only with key features, there will be plenty of climbing, hiding, logs, ropes etc.

That's a good idea on vinyl tiles, I have previously used flooring tiles as bases for reptile vivs, they usually have enough texture to provide grip!

[Spree]

Sept 11, 2014 19:26:02 GMT ilikedegus said:

Sept 11, 2014 16:47:54 GMT moletteuk said:

for main structural shelves I personally would choose something waterproof or at least water/urine resistant like melamine faced furniture board or plywood covered with vinyl tiles and then carefully edge the shelf.

Molette makes a good point - Melamine-Face Chipboard is not something I've ever used because of the way my cages are made. Edging the shelves with steel strip (see B&Q again) would be essential or your furry devils will eat them. Also you wouldn't want to leave pee-soaked substrate on them as eventually the melamine will lift from the wood (you can easily identify habitual peeing areas and prevent problems).

Regarding Aluminium, well some goos do eat it and some don't - and of course enough of it will make them ill. Manny (RIP) chewed anything and everything, even the thick pieces of Aluminum tea-tray we'd used to make a doorway. Some Aluminium's harder - if you find any with an "anodised" finish it will be harder than most (though the tea-tray was anodised and it didn't stop Manny.

Cardboard is a great floor-covering IMHO - plain brown boxes from supermarkets, as long as it's clean. Soaks up pee beautifully and then you can delight your local bin men by putting it in the recycling bin

Oops, posted at the same time Degus lol!

MFC is always a possibility, I split a viv with it once and it held up well to poops and pees from the snakes, although of course, it was a lot less frequent 
Substrate wise, I was looking at using Lignocel, as I use it for the reptiles and it is cracking stuff for absorbing urates and water when they decide the sit in their water bowls and cause floods! It's completely dust free to boot which is great, as I used to use aspen and oh lawdy, the dust from that was awful!  www.wildworldreptileshop.co.uk/lignocel-12-5kg/

I'll certainly go for anodised, a bit extra but the longer lasting is worth it! But knowing my luck, I end up with a super Goo like Manny the Iron Jaw! 

And as for delighting the bin men, if it smells in the recycling bin, they'll refuse to take it down here xD

[Spree]

Or, maybe Repticard would be better? www.reptilebedding.co.uk/Repti-Card_800g/p1685644_8074497.aspx

It's just shredded cardboard, so would be fine? Which do you think they're prefer?

Could even use their Softness kind for specific house bedding? www.reptilebedding.co.uk/Softness_250g/p1685644_7908917.aspx

I'm just rambling on now xD

[ilikedegus]

I wouldn't use the Lignocel unless you can find out what woods are in it specifically. Your goos WILL try eating it and it might not be good for them!

This has been recommended by some, we used to use it until we discovered sheet cardboard, it is excellent for keeping smells down. It's a horse bedding made from virgin paper pulp. Looks expensive until you realise you can remove the the piddly bits a handful at a time and just replace them.

www.northerncropdriers.co.uk/product/megazorb

Unfortunately you have to get a sack at a time. I was lucky as the only stockist in my county is less than a mile from me (see the stockist finder on the site).
As a seasoned exotic pet keeper you may not be daunted by this ;-)

[Spree]

Aaah! Megazorb! I used to use that before moving to Lignocel, as I found it a bit too dusty for the my Hognoses (digging snakes, dust would get up their nostrils and cause issues) and ended up moving all the snakes onto it. Plus it kinda smelt like old yoghurt  But if that's good for Goos, I can totally order more! I found the sacks didn't go as far as I expected, but I was using it for 9 snakes in large vivs with deep layers at the time!

Lignocel is Spruce wood, described as a bark free fibre, but I understand spruce is a dodgy one? Lignocel is a laboratory grade substrate, so I'm assuming they wouldn't use a harmful wood base, otherwise it would mess with any research? 

(Highlighted free as I kept reading it as tree lol)

[saddlers]

I use finacard maxibales, and have found it to be great, not much dust and it really does a good job of absorbing any liquids...seems to keep them occupied as well, they are always carrying it around

[ilikedegus]

Sept 11, 2014 21:03:13 GMT Spree said:

Lignocel is Spruce wood, described as a bark free fibre, but I understand spruce is a dodgy one?

What was bothering me, and I'm hoping that someone else spots this and answers, is that some of the volatile oils in conifers are really bad for rodent respiratory health. Kiln-dried is OK because these compounds have been driven off, but fresh wood can be really bad for them (don't let the monsters near a real Christmas tree!). Could be the Turpenes, but there's something else I can't remember and don't seem to be able to Google.

You're probably going to tell me that it's the same with reptiles.

Anyway, thinking it through, I'd guess that both Megazorba and Lignocel are probably spruce pulp - Megazorb is a paper-making waste and most paper is made of Spruce I believe.

All the volatile oils have long gone. I have a "basket" used during breadmaking made of spruce pulp and it looks and smells pretty inert to me. If it was eaten it would probably count as roughage.

My educated guess only. I shall not fret that you are about to poison your degus, I think you have plenty of common sense.

[hennie]

Hi Spree

Your plans look great.  However, if the space between the levels is going to work out as 10 inches, this will not fit the minimum 12 inch wheel for degus that is recommended in order to prevent problems for their spines.

Welcome to the fascinating world of degus.  I look forward to photos and news of your build, as well as your degus.

[hennie]

Just another thought, Spree

If your degus will use a saucer type wheel, this may solve the height problem but would, of course, take up more floor space.

Good luck with the build.

[Spree]

Sept 12, 2014 15:47:36 GMT ilikedegus said:

Sept 11, 2014 21:03:13 GMT Spree said:

Lignocel is Spruce wood, described as a bark free fibre, but I understand spruce is a dodgy one?

What was bothering me, and I'm hoping that someone else spots this and answers, is that some of the volatile oils in conifers are really bad for rodent respiratory health. Kiln-dried is OK because these compounds have been driven off, but fresh wood can be really bad for them (don't let the monsters near a real Christmas tree!). Could be the Turpenes, but there's something else I can't remember and don't seem to be able to Google.

You're probably going to tell me that it's the same with reptiles.

Anyway, thinking it through, I'd guess that both Megazorba and Lignocel are probably spruce pulp - Megazorb is a paper-making waste and most paper is made of Spruce I believe.

All the volatile oils have long gone. I have a "basket" used during breadmaking made of spruce pulp and it looks and smells pretty inert to me. If it was eaten it would probably count as roughage.

My educated guess only. I shall not fret that you are about to poison your degus, I think you have plenty of common sense.

Yes, it is indeed the same for reptiles  Especially Fresh Pine/Pine in general, that's a big nono for reptiles, which is probably why I'm having trouble getting my brain around using Pine for Goos, it's been drilled into my head lol!

And thanks, that's the last thing I want to do, so I may just end up using Megazorb or Repticard to play it safe. It would be more for convenience than anything if Lignocel is safe to use  

[Spree]

Sept 13, 2014 9:14:45 GMT hennie said:

Hi Spree

Your plans look great.  However, if the space between the levels is going to work out as 10 inches, this will not fit the minimum 12 inch wheel for degus that is recommended in order to prevent problems for their spines.

Welcome to the fascinating world of degus.  I look forward to photos and news of your build, as well as your degus.

Aaah of course! I'd made sure it would fit a wheel horizontally, but I didn't consider vertically! I'm going to have to do some thinking!

[moletteuk]

So the new dimensions might just work, but as Hennie points out it might be tricky fitting in the wheel. Don't forget you need space under the wheel for substrate and for it to turn clearly. A saucer could be an option, but not all degus like saucers and you would need a big one if it was going to be their only wheel and it would take up a lot of space. You might be able to place the shelf higher than half way, but that is going to be tight, it depends whether the 22" was the inside or outside length. Another option might be to have a cutout in the shelf around the wheel, but this would need to be fairly generous to stop curious degus getting trapped against the wheel.

Regarding metal edging, aluminium is sufficient to stop most degus unless it's in a place they really don't want it to be. They won't get through steel. I think it's nice to have some softwood edging in some less crucial places that you just replace.

Here are some bedding reviews deguworld.proboards.com/thread/8754/cage-bedding-reviews I only use megazorb for potty areas now, the smell and dust have got even worse lately. I use aubiose mainly which is hemp but looks like wood chips similar to the lignocel, it's very low dust, cheap and competely safe. If there is no smell to the lignocel, than I would think it is safe, people still use wood shavings after all and kiln dried softwood (mainly spruce) is safe to use for accessories etc. If you have any concerns, the aubiose would make a great substitute, probably good for your reptiles too. And yes, they will appreciate something like the 'softness' product for nest building, although you can just offer toilet or kitchen roll or anything like that and they will arrange and shred it how they like it - nest building is a major thing for some degus.

[ilikedegus]

Sept 13, 2014 10:00:53 GMT moletteuk said:

you can just offer toilet or kitchen roll or anything like that and they will arrange and shred it how they like it - nest building is a major thing for some degus.

LOL, indeed Spree you can hours of degu-watching fun with nesting materials. Each degu will have his or her own idea of how the nesting material should be transported or used, and the effort they will go to is impressive.

I've got into the habit of giving them any pieces of clean tissue I get (e.g. that comes with mail order clothes and shoes). I just drop it on the floor of the cage and watch them deciding how to use it. Daft but often amusing, especially if two goos get hold of opposite ends of a piece of tissue.

[Spree]

Sept 13, 2014 10:00:53 GMT moletteuk said:

So the new dimensions might just work, but as Hennie points out it might be tricky fitting in the wheel. Don't forget you need space under the wheel for substrate and for it to turn clearly. A saucer could be an option, but not all degus like saucers and you would need a big one if it was going to be their only wheel and it would take up a lot of space. You might be able to place the shelf higher than half way, but that is going to be tight, it depends whether the 22" was the inside or outside length. Another option might be to have a cutout in the shelf around the wheel, but this would need to be fairly generous to stop curious degus getting trapped against the wheel.

Regarding metal edging, aluminium is sufficient to stop most degus unless it's in a place they really don't want it to be. They won't get through steel. I think it's nice to have some softwood edging in some less crucial places that you just replace.

Here are some bedding reviews deguworld.proboards.com/thread/8754/cage-bedding-reviews I only use megazorb for potty areas now, the smell and dust have got even worse lately. I use aubiose mainly which is hemp but looks like wood chips similar to the lignocel, it's very low dust, cheap and competely safe. If there is no smell to the lignocel, than I would think it is safe, people still use wood shavings after all and kiln dried softwood (mainly spruce) is safe to use for accessories etc. If you have any concerns, the aubiose would make a great substitute, probably good for your reptiles too. And yes, they will appreciate something like the 'softness' product for nest building, although you can just offer toilet or kitchen roll or anything like that and they will arrange and shred it how they like it - nest building is a major thing for some degus.

In regards to the home, I've decided to get a custom one built from monstervivs.co.uk, dimensions 48" long, 30" high and 24" back! He's shown me a previous Degu Viv he's constructed and it's cracking, so I just figured I'll go for that and eliminate the issues of trying to fit stuff in! In case people are wondering on my insistence of a vivarium as opposed to the usual critter cages, I still live at home, and mum would freak at the mess from a wire cage lol, plus we have cats who would happily try shove their paws through otherwise!

Aubiose is like golddust down in the South West, at least it was last time I checked! Lignocel has no smell whatsoever, I've always preferred it as should any of the snakes happen to swallow any whilst feeding, it's easily digestible and very soft, not like aspen!

How about I throw a curve ball in; What about Miscanthus? fennington-fibres.co.uk/horse-miscanthus-bedding/   www.miscanthusbedding.co.uk/
Another one I've previously used, it's like £6 for a big bale (not that price is an issue), and is made from chopped, dried Elephant Grass. I was wondering if they'd enjoy the texture more, lots of little sticks to run about with!

[Spree]

Sept 13, 2014 15:37:54 GMT ilikedegus said:

Sept 13, 2014 10:00:53 GMT moletteuk said:

you can just offer toilet or kitchen roll or anything like that and they will arrange and shred it how they like it - nest building is a major thing for some degus.

LOL, indeed Spree you can hours of degu-watching fun with nesting materials. Each degu will have his or her own idea of how the nesting material should be transported or used, and the effort they will go to is impressive.

I've got into the habit of giving them any pieces of clean tissue I get (e.g. that comes with mail order clothes and shoes). I just drop it on the floor of the cage and watch them deciding how to use it. Daft but often amusing, especially if two goos get hold of opposite ends of a piece of tissue.

Aaaah yes, I used to love watching my Gerbils nesting! I'd drop in kitchenroll and such and they'd set to work straight away! Everything else didn't matter, breaking down the bedding and getting it just right was priority #1