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Post by finseed on Jul 13, 2014 14:26:37 GMT
Hi everyone, I was wondering if anyone could help with some issues we're having with our degu, Seymour. He hasn't been eating his hard food for 5 days now and has been slowly losing weight. He has me and my partner really worried. I took him to the vet the very first day something was wrong and she had him X-rayed very next day. She filed the buccal surface of his molar teeth down as there were slight spurs on them, but she said she didn't think they weren't bad enough to have been the cause of the problem. Not knowing what else it could be, she sent him home with me with some metacam and a routine of TLC. Since coming home he's been relatively active and normal- he's been running in his wheel, is still very curious when people come into the room, looks alert and even forages in his hay like normal even if he doesn't eat any. He does seem a little bit sleepier than usual, being in his bed maybe 50% of the time rather than the 25ish% that's more normal for him. He does eat fresh basil and the carob pieces from the XtraVital food we have (though his usual food is Pets at Home nuggets) but that's it. One thing in particular I wanted to ask about was his hay foraging habit: he seems to pick up pieces of hay like normal but then split them down the middle (so there's two, thinner pieces of hay the same length) and then he'll drop it and do the same with another- it almost looks like he's flossing with it, the way he feeds it through his mouth from left to right. He doesn't seem to be eating the hay at all when he forages for it, just splitting it, but he does this a lot throughout the day. Has anyone else had this experience with degus that aren't eating? I've been unable to find anything about this online. He also seems to be trying to eat some foods. He'll take them, seemingly try to eat them by bringing them to his mouth and nibbling a little bit, but then he'll either drop them and leave them or go bury them instead. He also seems to be drinking less, which is equally worrying. Other notes that might be relevant are as follows: - The vet also said there was no evidence of tumours or maloclusion. - Seymour's had some discharge coming from his eyes, but the vet doesn't think it's an infection. - His droppings are infrequent and small, probably due to dehydration, but it could be something else. - We've tried feeding him Critical Care and he very rarely takes any of it from the syringe. Same goes for baby food that we've tried as well. - He's a solitary degu, living in his own cage separate from his three brothers because they don't get along well: they pick fights with him--> he wins them--> they don't learn and pick fights again--> cycle continues until the fights get very bad... rolling in a ball stage. - He's 4 years old. Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated. We can't tell you how worried we both are considering the vet is stumped and he still isn't eating we feel like we're running out of options
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Post by yasmin on Jul 14, 2014 4:01:29 GMT
From my experience, my degus that stopped eating hard food all had spurs that had to be removed. When they start dropping and then burying the food that has also been a sign for me that it is time to take them to the vet to have spurs dealt with. The degus I have that have dental issues all started having them at 4-5 years of age.
However, after the dental work, after a few days they started eating their hard food again – all except the ones that had more serious issues with their teeth. Did the vet do an x-ray to check his molars?
Will Seymour eat sunflower seeds? Will he eat other treats like oats and puffed rice? Will he eat thawed out frozen peas? How are you giving him the metacam?
My degus don't split their hay but that might just be something Seymour likes doing – don't think it is a sign of an issue except that he is not eating it. (Though, some of my degus don't seem to like hay.)
It is midnight here so I need to get to bed, but I will come back to your thread with any more advice I can think of tomorrow.
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Post by finseed on Jul 14, 2014 9:37:23 GMT
Hi, thanks for your reply! As far as I'm aware, the vet's x-ray was a full body x-ray as well as a head x-ray- she was looking for anything that might be wrong, but she was definitely checking for issues with his teeth and molars. We didn't actually get to see the x-ray, and I could only talk to the vet over the phone a day after I'd brought Seymour home, but it sounded like she was looking for molar roots and spurs and she filed down ones she could see. She did say that she didn't think the spurs were the main issue, though, because she couldn't find any sores on his mouth as evidence that they were hurting him. In your experience, did your vet mention anything like ulcers and sores on the tongue and cheeks after filing down your degu's spurs? The very first day he wasn't eating his food I managed to get him to eat some oats, but after that he has only been eating the basil and carob. As an update from yesterday when I first posted, he did eat a relatively decent amount of baby food when we syringed it to him willingly, so he seems like he wants to eat at least. As I speak he's also just finished chewing on a bark branch and is now chewing on a peanut shell, but hasn't eaten the peanut itself. We haven't tried sunflower seeds or thawed frozen peas yet, that's a really good idea! That'll be today's mission, and I'll post an update RE its success The first few days of metacam feeding I had to force feed it into him by holding him still. I felt like a monster doing it, but it was the only way he'd eat any of it Now, if we're lucky, we've been able to get him interested enough in the syringe to nibble on it briefly and if I'm quick I can squirt it into his mouth while he's having a taste. It's the same way we've been feeding him the baby food, which he seems to really like. Unfortunately he still doesn't seem interested in the Critical Care, to the extent that if we mix the baby food and Critical Care together he won't eat it, but he'll still go straight for baby food on its own if we offer that instead. Thanks so much again for your reply! I'll post an update later today with news about what's going on.
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Post by finseed on Jul 14, 2014 12:26:40 GMT
Little update- we still haven't tried sunflower seeds or peas, but Seymour has eaten two of his food nuggets and a little of the other vegetable stuff in the XtraVital food. It isn't much, but it's significantly better than before.
My partner also thought to ask, if your degus have had spurs on their molars do they need to have them regularly checked and filed by a vet? If so, do you go in only when you notice a problem or do you bring them in regularly, like once or twice a year?
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Post by saddlers on Jul 14, 2014 15:41:24 GMT
I had my first experience of this with one of my degus recently and it has taken her a few days to get back into eating, she was eating very slowly after the operation. She does seem to be picking up now so it may be the same thing, she has been getting treats a bit more than usual just to try and encourage her to keep her weight. As for the regular checks, we have a few members who regularly have to get degu dental work done so maybe they can advise on how often or what are the triggers for them going to the vets
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Post by yasmin on Jul 14, 2014 18:43:10 GMT
Sometimes there are injuries to the sides of their mouths or their tongues (two of my degus had spurs that pinned down their tongues) caused by the spurs. I usually wait until I see signs of there being spurs before bringing them in to the vet. (Once I did bring Lilac in 6 weeks after her first de-spurring, but she only had a small spur then so the vet advised that I wait until I see signs.) Any one of these signs is what I look for: Not eating hard food except flat pieces, picking up food and then dropping it and/or burying it, not coming to get treats, being puffed up, drooling, bleeding from mouth, loss of weight. My degu Lilac has her molars growing into her nasal cavities so she is on Metacam as needed – approx. every two days. She likes thawed out frozen peas – I take one of these, remove the skin and split in in half, and then put a drop of the Metacam onto one of the pea halves. She loves it. I follow this up with giving her 10 additional peas (Metacam can be hard on the stomach so I want to make sure she has something in it). So glad to hear that Seymour has begun eating his hard food. I would expect that this should continue now that the spur has been removed and he is recovering from the dental work. (I think that after dental work their jaws are sore from being pried wide open for so long.) Please keep us posted.
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Post by animalmadchloe on Jul 14, 2014 21:25:21 GMT
I was having to take al every 3 months it's just started slowing down now but as soon as I notice that he's looking grumpy or not coming over to say hello or not taking treats then I know something's wrong
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Post by finseed on Jul 15, 2014 13:23:08 GMT
Thanks for all the support, guys, it really means a lot This morning, for the first time in days Seymour actually went to his bowl when I fed him and took some food. He buried most of it, but after a few minutes he did actually stick his head into the bowl like normal and nibble on some of the food there. It was hard to see if he was eating it or just dropping it, though, because his head was hidden inside his food bowl, and my partner says that it looked to her like he was dropping most of it. Regardless, it's still a step forward from how he's been recently. All we can hope now is, as you said, that he'll continue improving slowly until he's finally ready to eat his nuggets like normal again. For now we're still having to feed him some baby food from a syringe to make sure he's eating enough, but we don't want to keep doing it as it isn't the best food for him to be having regularly. We'll definitely have to try feeding him some frozen peas that we bought specially for him- we're just worried he'll be having too many vegetables and not enough hay, as he still doesn't seem to be eating it properly. It seems that most people wait until their degus show symptoms before taking them to the vet, which is what I would have expected- hopefully we can do the same thing and he'll continue to live a relatively normal life. It's reassuring that the symptoms you look for are exactly the same as Seymour's (he also is more comfortable eating the flat food, which I was pretty curious about). In your guys' experience, how long does it take for your degus to get back to normal? I ask because my main concern now is that it's been 5 days since his teeth were filed down and I was kind of expecting him to have recovered by now.
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Post by yasmin on Jul 15, 2014 21:18:59 GMT
I'd give it a week (two or three more days). I think the key is seeing signs of improvement – eating more and more normal food. If he becomes lethargic that would be a sign that things are turning for the worst. Otherwise, if he is still active and bright/alert I think there is no need to be worried yet.
I wouldn't be concerned at this point about a balanced diet – first get him eating and get his weight up. Give him whatever he will eat and it is important that you see him eating it.
I don't know what the nuggets you feed him look like but maybe buy a different hard food to try right now. I would try Versele Laga Degu Nature – it is not the best hard food for them (improper Ca:P ration and it has such a variety of bits in it that degus might pick and choose and only eat what they like) but it has these flattened out peas, and dried carrot bits and also extruded bits in all sorts of shapes and sizes. Goos with slightly sore mouths still go for the flattened peas, dried carrots and flat/pointy bits of hard feed. Lots for them to choose from. The tips of pointy extruded bits can be moistened and then given to the goo – again, easier to eat. Also feeding lots of greens like spinach leaves and dandelion leaves – these are easy for them to eat even with a sore mouth.
Also try organic rolled oats, organic puffed rice, sunflower seeds – hulled if necessary. Get him eating – get his weight up.
Another product I use - also not the best but at least they eat it – are the Versele Laga Crock Herbal treats. They look like green shreddies and supposedly have a decent amount of calcium and Vit. D (I still have to see what other people on this forum think of it). I give this to Lilac to ensure she is getting her vitamins – she loves it.
Please keep us posted.
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Post by finseed on Jul 17, 2014 11:32:17 GMT
Quick update: he's still not eating all of his food, but he seems to be eating at least some of it from his bowl. I'll post an update when he's 100% back to normal or if he starts going downhill again, but it seems to be looking good for now. Thanks everyone
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Post by finseed on Jul 22, 2014 14:40:38 GMT
Ok, so it's past the weekend and Seymour still isn't eating all of his food. He is almost certainly eating some of it, and he's still acting normal and like himself, but he still leaves at least 30% of his food buried around his cage. He also doesn't seem to be eating much hay or drinking a normal amount, and he's making strange grinding noises with his teeth. At first I thought this was him getting used to his teeth after they were filed and trying to use them again, but it can apparently be a sign of there still being a problem. We don't know if we should take him to the vet again, or to a different one and explain what's happened with the other vet, or if we should just wait and hope he starts eating more normally over time. Thanks everyone
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Post by yasmin on Jul 22, 2014 20:13:46 GMT
How is his weight? Is it stable?
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Post by finseed on Jul 22, 2014 21:02:43 GMT
He's 222g, which is technically a healthy degu weight, but for him it's really light. The good news there is that he's been hovering around that weight at for the last week or so (last time we weighed him he was 230g after having just been fed Critical Care, and the time before that he was 222g again).
Another thing that may be relevant is that when he is eating he seems to be spitting food out of his mouth... I'm not sure if it's different from the 'food dropping' that's associated with teeth problems as it doesn't look like he's dropping it but actively spitting it out of his mouth. He'll shake his head to get rid of it and occasionally even get it out of his mouth with his paw. In spite of this he is still eating, and he'll only spit out some of whatever it is he's eating.
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Post by deguconvert on Jul 23, 2014 4:39:41 GMT
He sounds like he is having difficulty swallowing. I think you need to have him looked at again, and when you do, ask to have him lightly sedated so that they can have a really good look at the back of his mouth. His tongue could be swollen, he could have spurs that are obstructing, or something else. Do this very soon, I think he is precariously near to another loss of weight and health.
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Post by finseed on Aug 7, 2014 13:04:45 GMT
We took him to another vet who apparently had quite a lot of experience with degus in the past but he didn't actually seem to know all that much. He seemed to think that 4 years old was towards the end of his life, but it sounded like his experience was with owners who didn't know how to look after degus properly. He only really looked at Seymour's front teeth and said they looked fine. He couldn't feel any bloating or anything to suggest that would be the cause of his not eating properly.
Seymour seems to be going through phases where he's eating normally and getting better and then he'll switch back to not doing well again: dropping food, not eating his hay, now he isn't even take critical care (which for days he'd been getting excited about every time we started preparing it near his cage). He still hasn't dropped any weight (consistently 222g) but we're starting to get more and more concerned that this isn't going away and we're running out of options.
We've reached the point where all the vets we call up are saying that they can't do anything else that hasn't already been done, and that we'd need to take him to the veterinary college near us to figure out the problem, but the consultation alone will cost £140 and any follow-up procedures would cost up to £2000! We literally don't have that kind of money.
One thing I wanted to ask was if it could be a difficulty swallowing that's due to something other than his teeth or tongue. Has anyone experienced that kind of thing?
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Post by saddlers on Aug 7, 2014 15:47:32 GMT
Where about are you located, someone may be able to make a recommendation?
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Post by animalmadchloe on Aug 8, 2014 6:22:35 GMT
When I was trying to find a decent vet I phoned around and told then that I was not at all happy with the diagnoses of need given and wanted another opinion I'm sure they can't say no we won't treat your animal because surely that would be neglect or something ? Have you tried googling vets near your post code then ringing around ? I had to do this an eventually I got recommended a vet by another vets lol
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Post by finseed on Aug 8, 2014 15:06:09 GMT
We live in Edinburgh, Scotland.
We're taking him to our usual vet again on Monday. The main issue with alternative vets isn't that they refuse to see him, it's that they all have zero experience with degus, so when our usual vets says they can't do much else I'm pretty sure any other vet would be able to do even less.
We're hoping that even if the vet doesn't know what's wrong they'll at least be able to give us either pain-killers, antibiotics or both to help Seymour start eating properly again. We're also fairly certain that his front incisors look unusual, but they don't look extraordinarily long, just like they don't match up 100%. I'm hoping that both me and my partner going to the vet will allow us to really sit down with them and talk out everything we think it might be.
Thanks for all the help, we really appreciate it. If anyone does have Edinburgh vet recommendations that would be amazing!
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Post by finseed on Sept 20, 2014 14:20:26 GMT
Hey everyone, it's me again with just a quick update about Seymour. It's been a long time now and he was still fluctuating with his weight for a while, but he seems to actually be going up now.
He's still leaving lots of crumbs in his bowl, but he's readily eating most of his hard food now and he seems to be drinking from his water bottle much better.
We went to our regular vet again and they prescribed some more painkillers and antibiotics. The antibiotics didn't seem to do all that much, but who can say. After a few weeks he went off them and that's when he started to improve, so maybe they did help clear up an infection a little bit. At any rate, we now have new vet contacts as well in case he starts to get worse again, but for now he seems to be (almost) fully back to normal.
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 20, 2014 17:04:39 GMT
YAY!! That was a long road for you and Seymour. What wonderful news that he is stabilizing and finally gaining weight. Thank you so much for bringing us an update!
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