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Post by fred on Sept 23, 2011 17:15:07 GMT
There are quite a few differences in degu keeping between the German-speaking countries and the English-speaking countries. However, none of these seems as dramatic as the use of plastic in degu cages. On deguforum.de there are continuous warnings about the danger of plastic in cages, with the risk of death mentioned frequently. Here nobody seems to be concerned at all. So either our German fellow degu keepers are hopelessly overreacting, or we here are dangerously ignorant.
For now, I am on the fence on this, as I haven't seen any evidence or strong arguments either way. But I think it's an important enough issue to discuss. Either we need to change our attitude towards plastic or we can feel reassured that we don't have to.
To our German members: I have searched deguforum.de with plastic and words like dead, death, blood, injury etc. and found many posts but not really any documented cases. At the moment it looks to me more like a reiteration of what members there think could theoretically happen to plastic in the degu stomach. Can any of you enlighten me with specifics?
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 23, 2011 18:13:32 GMT
We do warn against this, actually, as degus will chew through and escape very easily. Ingesting the plastic is also perceived to be a hazard. If at all possible, keep away from plastic bottomed cages, or find a way to replace it with metal. For plastic shelving, replace that with kiln dried wood.
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Post by fred on Sept 23, 2011 18:30:38 GMT
We do warn against this, actually, as degus will chew through and escape very easily. Ingesting the plastic is also perceived to be a hazard. If at all possible, keep away from plastic bottomed cages, or find a way to replace it with metal. For plastic shelving, replace that with kiln dried wood. I was thinking about wheels, saucers, tunnels, that kind of thing. We see them a lot in cages here. I am not at all convinced that they pose any problem, but since the issue was raised in another thread today, I thought it would be good to talk about it and get more information. |
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Post by amie on Sept 23, 2011 18:37:19 GMT
I use plastic wheels, however it's very strong plastic which they'd find a little harder to chew than flimsy plastic if they tried. I'd never use anything else plastic as I know that would get chewed. They use the wheels for running. IF they ever did try chewing the wheel, I would remove it.
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Post by Kat on Sept 23, 2011 18:37:42 GMT
I'm not sure if degus injest the plastic but it can become very sharp after a chew. This is my primary concern with it. Also plastic is a lot softer than wood. Once the little choppers have a start on it I'm sure whatever it was wouldn't last very long. Personally I stay clear of all plastic for my degus and other furries. I have even just made little metal wheels for my gerbils and syrian hamster too.
Kat
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Post by davx on Sept 23, 2011 21:24:14 GMT
Hello Fred, personally I make a difference between hard, refractory and relatively soft plastic. Hard plastic (e.g. thermosetting polymer en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermosetting_polymer ) I assume that their risk is overestimated. Soft plastic and plastics with added plasticizer are probably much more a problem, in particular plasticizer might be harmful if they are digested and the soft plastic becomes hard in the stomach or gut and now causes injuries. Soft plastics like rubber etc. which are assumed to pass the digestive tract unaltered are also probably overestimated as a source of danger, on the other hand they are a favourite target for the degus to gnaw and I think there are better alternatives, so that I try to avoid such plastics too. Short recap, I assume that the only realistic danger is from plasticizer, the other ones are perhaps attractive to gnaw and not really a good material for this purpose, but they aren't harmful neither. And yes, the topic is overestimated in the german community, but as I said, besides the hard and refractory plastics most sorts of plastics are easily to gnaw and the degus can't resist to try it. For this purpose personally I prefer other materials to gnaw. |
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Post by aya0aya on Sept 24, 2011 6:37:22 GMT
Thanks you started this topic, Fred. You already know my two love to chew everything plastic outside the cage. Well after some advices things went better. But plastic wheels in the cage and two plastic levels are not so interesting. They try it a bit and then left alone. Maybe is the different plastic. Maybe anyone know what plastic or other material are those things to sweep floor (are those called brooms?). This is one thing they cant resist and fights with me when I try to take it away are regular  I was thinking to get them one to chew, made from piggy bristle. Would this be safer? Sorry for the english, I have found some words in dictionary and I'm not sure if they're understandable  |
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Post by davx on Sept 24, 2011 7:04:38 GMT
In earlier days brooms were made with brush-wood (thin twigs) or animal hairs (e.g. horse). Also nowadays there are brooms made with natural animal or herbal fibre (e.g. rice roots or cocos). Also here wikipedia is an useful tool: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BroomOf course plastics are also used, the german article gives here a more detailled overview: It points out that (besides natural material) PVC, polypropylene, and polyamide are used, also in combination with herbal fibre. |
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Post by Maravilla on Sept 24, 2011 12:54:24 GMT
Maybe the risk of plastic is overestimated. I don't know and therefore won't judge about it. Nevertheless, I would never put anything plastic in the cages of my degus (or any other rodent or rabbit) as I know that they will try to chew it. There is no need to try it out, and even less when there are alternatives which are far more safe. I think it was one of my recent posts that animated Fred to open this thread as I was saying something about plastic running wheels and plates. Here in Germany there are a couple of very good alternatives, so there is no need to use plastic wheels. This might be different in other countries.
I know my degus and know that they are very curious and - at least some - are always interested in chewing anything available, even metall things. In this, I don't trust them and I think there is nothing wrong in at least informing people that plastic might cause problems. Does there really have to happen anything?
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Post by fred on Sept 24, 2011 13:31:07 GMT
I have been interested in this issue for a while. In my first thread on deguforum.de, I had posted a link to nightwishraven's cage gallery and was very surprised that a member there expressed her shock and horror regarding the amount of plastic items in the cages shown. The view on plastic is fundamentally different on the two forums (expressed in many posts on deguforum.de and obvious from may cage pics here). Because it may affect the health and safety of our degus, it is something we shouldn't ignore it. If plastic can cause problems, members and visitors here should of course be informed about it. I'd just like to know better what the potential problems are. It is different to say to degu owners “next time, why don't you choose a non-plastic alternative?” or say “this is really dangerous, remove it from the cage ASAP!!”.
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Post by davx on Sept 24, 2011 13:36:03 GMT
I see this a little bit different. I agree that for gnawing there are better solutions and I don't use it for this purpose neither, but I also think plastic is not equal plastic, there are differences.
The hard sorts we already pointed out, that it seems they are little attractive for gnawing, in contrast there are also others they attract the degus like a magnet the iron. Why we shouldn't make a difference between this obvious different sorts of plastics?
Of course everybody is free to avoid plastics in general for the own keeping, but I think the idea of Fred was to go more in the details trying to find a suitable way respecting the different situations in the different pays but also keep possible hazard in mind, where it is necessary.
edit: my posting was a response to Maravilla.
@fred
I agree that the way to talk is of importance. It is better to give positive suggestions than criticising without respect to the individual situation.
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Post by Maravilla on Sept 24, 2011 17:50:00 GMT
but I also think plastic is not equal plastic, there are differences. Ok, I got the point, but how can I find out what kind of plastic is used for a "toy" and if this plastic is suitable for degus? Here in Germany there is one running wheel made of plastic that is said to be suitable, but I wouldn't use it anyway (it has an almost closed front with only small holes). As I don't use plastic I never checked if there is any information on the labels, but I think there was it wouldn't be really helpful. |
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