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Post by blossombrooks on Sept 22, 2011 22:32:55 GMT
I'd like to start a project studying the female degu cycle or basically when they are in heat and how this effects their behaviour. For some time now I've struggled to understand what's been happening to one of my degus Daisy on a regular basis. I've considered all kinds of things but with some help from Chloe at Degutopia I realised that Daisy exhibits very strongly when she is in heat. This makes tracking her cycle easy. At present daisy is pretty much on a 21 day cycle. This is about right for an adult female degu. I've read a lot of research into the female degu oestrus, (see here if you fancy a read www.biolreprod.org/content/early/2010/11/16/biolreprod.110.087403.full.pdf it's very long and laborious but informative  ) The research shows that as the cycle reaches it's peak the female degu will increase their wheel running greatly. I can certainly vouch for this being true. Both pepper and daisy consistantly wheel run and go a bit nuts around this time. So daisy is just getting over being in heat this month. I can tell it's starting by certain behaviour markers. 1. Drinking more water Their body heat rises so naturally they need more water, it can be up to 4 •c which is quite a lot. 2. Activity increases This also means more water is required. They drink around 100ml extra! 3. Female humping Yep girls do it too and it happens a lot more at this time! 4. Swollen lady degu parts This is what has caused me a problem all this time. I took daisy to vets, spoke to anyone who'd listen but it appeared as if she was getting an infection repeatedly. She had baytril several times and it did seem to help. It actually did nothing, it was the cycle running it's course. Daisy just has a very pronounced reaction to being in heat. 5. Stroppy, Moody googles! Pepper is worst for this, she is an absolute madam when in heat. She bullies daisy and even tries to bully me! She also won't come for fuss when usually she's a sweetheart. So that's my observations so far. I know it's a bizare topic but it's one that's caused a great deal of worry and stress on my part, the not knowing. I hope by sharing these and updating others will benefit and learn to read the behaviours too. It does explain a lot! Thanks for reading.  |
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Post by marracraighead on Sept 22, 2011 22:57:59 GMT
Ok have not ventured into the reading you posted but plan to. It does cause me to think about my girls.
I recently mixed my new found boys with my girls and I was wondering how long I have to separate them before pups run amuck in my home.
So I am guessing after the mating calls I heard a few days ago I need to do it within a couple weeks.
ty ty you put a little sanity to my goofy goos
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Post by fred on Sept 23, 2011 19:42:07 GMT
This is really interesting. We know so little about these issues and how they may have changed in captivity. I will try to get onto my girls' cycle (not sure whether this is the right expression ). The 100ml extra seems an awful lot. Over how many days is this and how do you know which of your girls drinks how much (or are they synchronous?). And how do you measure the temperature? I hope you don't shove a thermometer up their  |
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Post by blossombrooks on Sept 23, 2011 20:44:28 GMT
@fred the 100ml extra is consumed mainly on the 3 peak days of the cycle but it's not excessive. The majority of the water is consumed at night when they've been out playing so I'm still around to monitor who's drinking what. The girls are not synchronised, pepper is just after daisy but she is much harder to track. She doesn't seem to get as frustrated by it as daisy. Another reason for keeping this log is to see if daisy calms down, she's aprox 15 months and if her hormones don't settle soon I will need to take action. I'm debating a neutered male or getting her done, it's hard watching her go through this each month.
The temperature variance I've found out about through research studies (and both girls feet seem hot when in heat). The university of Michigan does a lot of research with degus, it's really interesting.
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Post by Maravilla on Sept 24, 2011 8:11:19 GMT
These are my experiences as far as I remember them.
I started with 5 girls in one group, about 2 years ago. I got them in late autumn. First signs of a cycle I noticed in March/ April of the following year. Some of the girls (not all!!) became strange for one day, were more active, showed dominance symptoms like mounting and were somewhat more bitchy. This lasted not longer than one day.
The cycle I remember was about 21-23 days per girl.
In summer we introduced 2 of the girls (fights in the girl group etc... long story) with a neutered male. From then on, the cycle of one girl was clearly noticeable because we saw the boy very often mounting the girl... and crying it out afterwards. But also here I remember that this only lasted about a day (even less I would say).
In autumn last year the cycle in two of the girls of the other group was very visible. The ladies seemed grumbly and querulous (or how it was described in the first post moody and stroppy). The third one didn't show any of this behaviour. This was also the time when this small group got separated due to fights within the girls.
We now have three groups, each one with a neutered boy.
The lady of the pair (Schneewittchen) doesn't show any symptoms of a cycle. There is no sexually induced/ motivated mounting.
The ladies of the second group - Thelma and Louise - are being mounted every 3 weeks approx. These two ladies changed a lot, are not any longer grumbly but just force the boy to mount them, they even run after him.... and he learnt to cry it out afterwards...
In the third group only Daphne shows a clear cycle of 21-23 days... being this also cried out by the boy.
If I don't remember wrong, there was no such behaviour in winter, but I may be wrong as I didn't make notes.
Of the behaviour described in the first post I can't confirm the higher amount of water consumption and cannot say anything about the swollen lady degu parts as my degus are not that tame.
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Post by davx on Sept 24, 2011 9:29:25 GMT
This sounds interesting. I have no own observations concerning this topic, but there are also further readings about the topic. I didn't know the publication you mentioned, but I know earlier studies, e.g. from the british biologist Barbara Weir in the 1970ies. She did researches at the Wellcome Institute in London and worked with different soutamerican rodent species, also with degus. In german there is also a short but handy overview about reproduction literature in the introduction of the following dissertation / graduate thesis (table pages 8-10 and pages 16-19): edoc.ub.uni-muenchen.de/5268/1/Gneiser_Barbara.pdf |
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Post by davx on Sept 24, 2011 9:42:21 GMT
This here is the work from Weir: la.rsmjournals.com/cgi/reprint/4/1/83.pdfIf I remember well, she stated that oestrus is induced by male presence and is irregular. However authors of later studies disagreed, but stated a regular cycle. |
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Post by blossombrooks on Sept 24, 2011 19:40:24 GMT
Maravilla ah the neutered male in with your females sounds like it works quite well. It's something I definitely have to look into. My girls cycles settled down over last winter too but I'm going to make accurate notes this year as to when. I'm lucky daisy is always climbing the cage and if I treat her she stays still while I examine her. :-) davx thank you so much, the weir research was really interesting :-) they def don't need a male presence tho, lol. I'll have to open the other link up on my laptop and put it through google translate. My german is very rusty! Thanks for sharing.
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Post by Maravilla on Sept 25, 2011 7:23:13 GMT
Having a neutered male in a group of girls in fact is perfect. It's the most natural combination and has a couple of advantages. Introductions were quite easy and girls now have fun ;D.
The theory that there is a male needed to induce an oestrus cycle doesn't work with my girls.
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Post by malteser60 on Sept 30, 2011 14:22:26 GMT
Very very interesting read blossombrooks, thank you.
I do wonder if girls placed with males (whether neutered or not) display signs of being in heat more readily than if they are not with males? Which could explain maybe why earlier studies suggested that degus undergo induced ovulation. So, for example, my two older girls never really show any signs of being in heat, unlike blossombrook's and maravilla's girls. Reading blossombrook's posts has given me a few 'aha!' moments which explains some of my girls behaviour, but nowhere near the level of activity that blossombrook's girls exhibit. However if I introduced a neutered male in with my two girls would they display more when in heat i.e. displays such as increased change in temperment and activity?
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 30, 2011 15:28:48 GMT
Slight turn of discussion but . . . if we somehow . . . got rid of all the men . . . would that make our cycles easier? Just wondering if there is a connection. LOL!
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Post by blossombrooks on Sept 30, 2011 19:18:34 GMT
Ah DC if only, if only.... lol! Maravilla like you I def have no male in sight but daisy exhibits to the extreme. I'd love to hear other people's experiences with mixed sex degus. @ malteaser I would assume if they currently don't display then their hormone levels are normal but at a guess a male would induce higher hormones and all the associated behaviours but as you see a male isnt always needed. I'm glad it's helping and you've gone 'aha' lol. That's how I was when I first started researching. The real key is wheel time, if you monitor it closely it will show a pattern. |
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 30, 2011 19:39:58 GMT
Wheel time . . . hmmm . . . so if she were actually covering ground in the wild, rather than just spinning in space on a wheel . . . she would be leaving her scent all over the place. Essentially putting out the word in bold scented letters, that she is fertile and ready. I wonder if this is a traite that is part of the female degus process of finding a mate then, and her instincts are driving her to the wheel in an attempt to do the same thing?
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Post by blossombrooks on Sept 30, 2011 21:33:58 GMT
Ooooh I hadn't thought of that!! Nice one . I don't know much about wild degu breeding habits but maybe if they do cover the distance it's to prevent inbreeding too? All of the research I've found is lab tests so far. It could be like meerkats but in reverse, the male meerkats go out and find females from opposing gangs to mate with, perhaps the girl degus do the same. If I ever win the lottery I'm going to Chile and funding a big expensive research project on wild degu mating habits. I'm such a nerd.... |
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Post by fred on Sept 30, 2011 22:10:05 GMT
In the wild, degus live in small social groups of on average 2 males and 4-5 females. Mating will normally occur between individuals of the group. They only breed once a year. The differences between reproduction in wild and in captivity are quite striking and, as far as I am aware, not explained.
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Post by deguconvert on Oct 1, 2011 4:57:21 GMT
Yeah, I thought of that Fred . . . do you think that domesticated degu breeding/instincts are completely different from wild degu patterns? An adaptation of sorts? Are there other animals that show very different tendencies in their habits when compared between wild and domesticated? blossombrooks . . . makes me wonder if she would settle right down if ever she were mated and allowed to have a litter pups. |
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Post by Kat on Oct 1, 2011 5:43:37 GMT
This is very interesting reading. I only have boys and never even thought of the poor ladies.
@blossombrookes I'm sure that a lot of people with females will read this and suddenly their females behaviour will make sense.
I look forward to reading more.
Kat
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Post by fred on Oct 2, 2011 20:22:39 GMT
Yeah, I thought of that Fred . . . do you think that domesticated degu breeding/instincts are completely different from wild degu patterns? An adaptation of sorts? Are there other animals that show very different tendencies in their habits when compared between wild and domesticated? It is kind of the reverse of adaptation. With strong seasonal fluctuations and a 3 months gestation period, a second litter could spell disaster in the wild. Similar observations have been made for other domesticated animals and it is progressive. If we now find that females can become pregnant during an oestrus three weeks after giving birth, this could be just another stage. |
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Post by blossombrooks on Oct 6, 2011 20:04:49 GMT
Today daisy's activity levels are increasing.
It is aprox 19 days since her last oestrus. Wheel running was minimal yesterday, today she is on the wheel about every 5 minutes or so. As she nears her peak there will be almost no break.
Pepper has just had a little boxing session with her, this is usual as their hormones increase they will become quite agitated. They are both being quite vocal today. It seems to really annoy pepper when daisy is in heat, as top goo I assume daisy being in heat is more of a threat to her dominance.
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Post by Bexi87 on Oct 6, 2011 21:10:09 GMT
I've never really noticed any 'heat' style behaviour in my girls, and nothing has changed since Hugo moved in. To be honest I was expecting behavioural changes but so far there hasn't been any  The only behaviour change I have seen with my girls is that Biscuit and Fudge calmed down a lot when I introduced the 3 babies and they are a lot more relaxed nowadays. I'm very interested in what happens to Daisy over the year though  |
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